Building Smarter Public Health Campaigns

Building a public health campaign shouldn’t start with what we want to say—it should start with who needs to hear it and what decisions they’re making in the moment. In this episode, we break down some of the things we think about when we create or participate in national campaigns, from pinning down primary and secondary audiences to finding the messengers they trust. We also get into why you shouldn't just use the photos you find on Google, and we close with a tip on designing for dark mode.

Topics:

• National Injury Prevention Day
• Start With Audience, Not Messages
• Choosing Channels And Social Constraints
• Data Informs Action, Emotion Drives Attention
• Audit Existing Resources And Fill Gaps
• Partner-Friendly Assets And Formats
• Tone, Music, And Visuals Set Emotion
• Jargon, Plain Language, And Trust
• Image Licenses: Risks And Best Practices
• Dark Mode

Links:

National Injury Prevention Day (NIPD): https://nationalinjurypreventionday.org/
NIPD Post-Event Fireside Chat (Tracy is moderating!): https://nationalinjurypreventionday.org/kickoff-webinar#fireside-chat
Copyright, Creative Commons, and Public Domain: https://youtu.be/BTNI1Od5IaA
Reverse Image Search: https://youtu.be/3JJdFfNpaz8
Google License Sorting Tool: https://youtu.be/zjVgQgm7GY8

If you liked what you heard today, please consider subscribing to or following us. We also love it when you like or comment on the episode. Share it with somebody you think might like it. If you want to get in touch with us, there's a link in the show notes that will send us a text.

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This podcast is a project of the Center for Injury Research Translation and Communication (CIRTC). Connect with CIRTC: www.cirtc.org

Find CIRTC on LinkedIn, Bluesky, and YouTube.

Note: all thoughts and opinions shared in this podcast are personal and not representative of any organization.

Chapters

• 0:43 National Injury Prevention Day
• 2:07 Start With Audience, Not Messages
• 6:02 Choosing Channels And Social Constraints
• 12:30 Data Informs Action, Emotion Drives Attention
• 17:03 Audit Existing Resources And Fill Gaps
• 19:21 Partner-Friendly Assets And Formats
• 25:21 Tone, Music, And Visuals Set Emotion
• 28:40 Jargon, Plain Language, And Trust
• 31:04 Image Licenses: Risks And Best Practices

Transcript

Katrina: 0:10

Welcome to Communications Breakdown, where we break down what works and doesn't and health and science communication. I'm Katrina Boylan and I'm Tracy Mehan.

Tracy: 0:21

If you listen to our intro episode, we said we'd give you a real look at what it's like to work in this field. So in this episode, we're gonna do just that. We're actually gonna break down three things that Katrina and I have been talking about as things that have come up in the past couple of weeks for us.

Katrina: 0:38

All right, let's get into those three topics that you talked about, Tracy. So National Injury Prevention Day is November 18th. And Tracy has been working with some groups behind the scenes on some events around National Injury Prevention Day. And by the way, you can find her in action as the moderator for a post-event webinar. And we'll put a link for that in the show notes. So register for that webinar. But, you know, we are constantly working on campaigns both as leaders and as partners. And so we decided to do a quick breakdown of some of the things that we think about when we approach a campaign. And so this isn't meant to be, you know, a how-to manual or, you know, everything about how to do a campaign. This is just a peek into our thought process and our workflow. And I also really want to distinguish the type of campaign we're going to be talking about here. We're going to be talking about, you know, kind of broad national public health campaigns, generally with partners and generally around, you know, a common event, a common message, you know, things like that. And so, Tracy, let's start where we always start once we have that event, topic, you know, whatever we're messaging around. We start with who's the audience.

Tracy: 2:10

Right. I think it's great that we're starting here as our first step. It's one that we spend a lot of time on, but I'm always surprised. I see so many people skip over the conversation about who is our audience and jump straight to what they want to communicate about a topic without really thinking about who's gonna be on the receiving end and what that looks like. So so many times I see conversations around campaigns start with what I want to tell you instead of what you might want to, or need to, hear, right? So we start with audience and we really think about them. Who is it? What do they need to know? What do they care about? What are some of the cultural norms around this topic for our audience? Maybe what barriers might they be facing? Are there any health disparities around this topic that we need to think about and incorporate? And even things like who's going to be the most likely person that they will trust and hear the message from, which sometimes is not us. And that's okay. And we need to think about that, right? So when we, Katrina, start to brainstorm and think about our ideas, we try and put ourselves in their shoes. We are thinking about where they are when they're encountering the problem that we're trying to address. We even think about what emotions might they might be feeling and what are some of the factors that might affect their decision. And on top of that, we go one more step and we think about how every campaign almost always has more than one audience. And they can be connected, but sometimes not, right? But we think about the multiple audiences then. Who else has a stake in this issue? Who has the power to make change? Because sometimes change can't be made at an individual level. And we also are very thoughtful to think about who might be left out if we're not careful. Mm-hmm.

Katrina: 4:22

You know, one of the things that I think really come to mind when I think about this particular question is what you've said about where are they when they're encountering the problem we're trying to address and, you know, what's their situation at that time and what factors are are going to affect their decision. You know, I can remember when you were working on portable pools with one of our colleagues, um, that safety campaign, I remember you saying, you know, let's imagine that we're standing in the in the store looking at, you know, kind of a wall of those portable pools or those backyard pools that you can set up and thinking about what's a parent or a caregiver or a grandparent or somebody's that that's buying this. What are they thinking about? What's important to them? And, you know, then going back to what you said about the more than one audience, you know, same thing with kind of the portable pools or the backyard pools. It might not be something that maybe can move through a legislature, for instance, but homeowners associations have an awful lot of power, right? And so maybe it's working with a homeowners association to get some type of ordinance that backyard pools need to have kind of the same protections as those kind of permanent pools. So again, we really do think about all of the things that our audience might be experiencing in the very moment that they're going to encounter this issue.

Tracy: 5:54

Yeah, I love that you brought up the homeowners association because it's a group that not everybody always thinks about, right? And once we figured out who the audience is, then we kind of pivot and thought think about where is the campaign happening? Because that matters a lot. Is it gonna be in print? Is it gonna be digital? Are we talking about social media? And honestly, for a lot of campaigns these days, we're mostly talking about social media, and not always because it's the best option for every message, but it's one that most organizations can afford. It's I'm gonna say quote free in the sense that you're not paying for airtime or printing, but your cost is in person hours. Um, and right now money is tight for a lot of organizations, and so all they have to spend is that person time, right? But when we think about campaigns that are done primarily on social media, the challenge is that really limits what we can say and how many details we can share. If you think about how people engage with social media, attention spans are super short and people are scrolling and they decide in seconds whether or not to stop or keep moving, or, you know, even if they're gonna look at it. If you don't have a visual that grabs them right away, they're gonna keep going and we've missed them, right? And we've talked about this before, but a lot of public health professionals haven't been trained to think about how to effectively deliver content in that type of environment. We're used to having lots of space and giving full explanations, not having one image with 10 words. And how do we say everything we want to say with that, right? If your campaign is going to be on social, there are some important questions you do need to really ask. You need to think about what channels your audiences actually are using. How does that impact the size of your graphics? How much information can you include? Should you be using static images or video or reels? Would they work better? All of those things are things we should be thinking about. And possibly one of the most overlooked questions: do your messengers and partners know how to use those platforms? Because it doesn't matter how good the content is that we create if the people who we want to use it don't know how to use it on the platform we're asking them to engage with. So all of those things are things we think about when we're thinking about where we're delivering the content and how that impacts what we create.

Katrina: 8:31

Yeah, those are such either limiting or maybe not limiting is the right word, but they're defining factors. It does help give your campaign some structure once you can decide those things.

Tracy: 8:47

I like that, I think we should go with defining characteristics because a lot of people think of it as a limit, and I it's not. It's just redefining how we think about it. I love that.

Katrina: 8:57

Yeah, and it's what we've got too. As you said, funding's tight for everybody. It's not like it's not like we've got money necessarily to go out and do big campaigns. So we're working where we can. Right. Right. Yeah. So the next thing that we wanted to bring up here is data because you know, we're in health, we're public health, and we know that we need to provide evidence to back up our messaging. And so in injury prevention, our field, sometimes we don't always have new data or great data. Um, but you know, that doesn't always mean that we can't find some type of effective intervention that then can help us ultimately determine a message for our campaign. And I want to stop for a second and focus on how the the data plays a role in how we develop the message, because I think this is where a lot of people get tripped up. We don't believe that the data itself is almost ever going to be the message. If you're in an academic conference, sure. But even then, you might want to be providing more context and something a little more than that. It's almost never going to be the message itself. But that data does inform where an intervention or an action that you want your audience to take is. And we will then design our messaging around that action or the intervention. But the data itself is just is just not going to be the message for these big national campaigns. And so when we do get that data, we take a look at where the injuries are happening, you know, kind of who they're happening to, what types of injuries are we seeing. And, you know, the example I can think of right now is um ATVs. You know, we knew a lot of injuries were happening when kids were driving adult ATVs, for example, uh, not wearing helmets, riding on roads, which ATVs are not safe to drive on. And so our campaign focused on interventions for those problems. Um, but I want to be clear about we tied the intervention then to an emotion to get to an actual message. It's not even just the intervention. Most of us are moving through the world in kind of that system one, not really thinking deeply and engaging deeply kind of space. And so, in order to get people out of system one or you know, activate people's interests, you need to get their attention. And in these big campaigns, your audience might not be aware that you're trying to reach them or you know, you might not be seeking out this information. So we as the organizers have to figure out how to get their attention. And so the way to do that is to bring in an emotion. And so your data and your intervention, those can't be the only pieces of your message because you do need to pull in some type of emotion. And that's those are the pieces of your complete message. So with ATVs, going back to that, you know, we ended up, we did the same thing. We put ourselves in the shoes of a parent or a caregiver whose kid is asking them to go out and ride ATVs. And we imagined the pressure of, you know, wanting to keep your kids safe, but also wanting to let them have fun and take some adventure, you know, have some adventures. And so we chose the message don't just say yes, learn the risks of ATVs before you allow your kids to ride. We connected that emotion of, you know, wanting to do things, but you know, that safety instinct kicking in, and then connected it with an action that was tied to the data that we had on ATVs.

Tracy: 13:04

Yeah, I love that you use that as an example. I personally had to cross that bridge myself and have conversations with my own kiddo about this. So I know how hard that can be, but it it helps connect in that way. Some people connect with the data, but a lot of people don't. And so hearing it a different way or entering into the conversation in a different way, I think can be really powerful. So the next thing we kind of wanted to talk about is how we decide what resources we're gonna create. And really early on, we go out and we look at what other resources are already out there and where might there be gaps. You know, for us, we have a philosophy that we don't always have to create something brand new. We don't have to start from scratch if there's great resources out there. We can share something that somebody's already doing if they're doing it well, right? Especially in these times where we're limited in our resources and our capacity. Let's lift others up. And then let's see kind of where the gaps are, right? What's missing out there that we can fill a need that's not already out there? We don't need to have 50 different campaigns on a topic message. What we need to do is bring something new. So that's part of it. But then we also go back to our audience again. What resources do our audience need? So we want to think about that. And we also have to think about capacity. What can we create? What do we have time for? What do we have skills for? Um, you know, what capacity do we have for this? All of that stuff matters. We also think about, you know, what resources our partners need. And again, we're talking about these national campaigns and tapping into existing resources. That's great and that's really important. But sometimes we can't do that because there are some limitations on what we can share. I can't share as a children's hospital, I'm not going to share a resource from another children's hospital that's a competitor. So, you know, we have to think about that.

Katrina: 15:24

Yeah, you know, we are often the convener. And so anytime I can be on the receiving end of that kind of that campaign experience, you know, more of the participation kind of role rather than the leader of it. I will almost always learn something that helps us, I think, design better materials or experience for our partners for our future campaigns. And so there are a couple of things I just want to mention right here as little, just little things that we have found occasionally limit our ability to participate fully. The first one is that templates are helpful, but not if I can't edit them at all to my needs. And so if you're only providing a PowerPoint background, for instance, as a JPEG or an image file rather than as some separate elements, you might end up with people creating some really kind of disorganized slides or things that are not or just not aesthetically pleasing, hard to understand. Um, you know, it it just doesn't allow the flexibility that people might need in order to create that that better experience for their audience. If possible, I would also request that people provide logos, colors, uh, the hex codes for colors that you're using. And sometimes even the fonts, what fonts you're using, not the fonts themselves, but just tell me what fonts you're using. That way I can create things that mimic the look and feel without relying on you know somebody else to create that all the time. I can personalize it to what we need. And just a personal plea to please offer logos in a PNG format as well, not a JPEG. Uh PNG formats provide a transparent background and JPEGs are a white only background. And so some things we see sometimes are people using logos with um a white background on a colored kind of a graphic or something, and it just it just doesn't look very clean.

Tracy: 17:42

Yeah, I'm gonna pipe in here real quick and just say, yes, as somebody that spends a lot of time creating presentations, all the things you just said, please, please, please do that. It makes everything better.

Katrina: 17:53

Yeah. And these are the the last two things here are just they're small. If possible, it's great to offer different formats and sizes for your assets or the things that you're offering, especially right now. Vertical options are really nice to have. Um, horizontal images, just that's just not where social media is right now. But the other thing is sometimes it's really nice to have some images without people. Um, it just gives some flexibility for those of us who are trying to reach different audiences. And then, last tip for, you know, providing these types of materials is to make sure that you're leaving enough space around any visual elements that you are providing for text, for, you know, kind of co-branding, you know, if they're adding a logo, things like that. Sometimes the things that we get are so full that there's nowhere to add our own stamp on it. So those are just my uh quick tips, I guess, for for um providing materials that your partners can use.

Tracy: 18:58

Yes. And those are all really important and they all come from our own experiences and frustrations that we've had on the being a partner side. While we're talking about partners, I want to think about how we decide or how we invite people to the table or who we even think about as partners. And we do really try and think about how we can invite people who might be outside of our normal networks. Uh, so I want to give a couple of examples here for a campaign that we did on safe medication storage. We've reached out to groups like pharmacies and poison control centers. That makes sense, right? Those are the groups that you kind of tend to think about makes sense to do that with safe medication. But we also thought about reaching out to places like substance use recovery organizations or travel agencies to encourage families to safely store their medicine when they're traveling. Because a lot of times when some of these things happen, it's when people are outside of their normal or in different situations, right? So be creative and think about other groups that we can get involved. Um, another great example is for a campaign we did on safe storage of marijuana edibles. We actually created a point of sale poster that dispensaries could hang by the cash register so people could see the information about how to safely store your edible right at the place where they're buying it. And, you know, working with dispensaries is not a thing that a lot of people in public health have done. It might not be comfortable for some organizations, but it's a great place to get people where they're really thinking about the information. Katrina, you talked earlier. We put ourselves in their shoes. That's where they are. Let's be there.

Katrina: 20:54

Yeah, you know, um, not sure that one's the most comfortable for a lot of people, but again, you know, if that's if that's where they are, then you're right. That's that's where we should be. All right. Well, just a couple more things on campaigns. And so let's talk a little bit about tone and visuals. And what I mean by that is, you know, kind of what is the look and the feel of the campaign? And, you know, we know that so much information is shared before a word is read or spoken. You know, the look and the feel, the music, even the language of printed text, you know, it's all critical to get people to pay attention to the message that we want to share. And, you know, I think of tone as is really just emotion. And even in public health campaigns and other things that need a professional kind of element to it, we can still use emotion. I literally just talked about this with our our current intern who is helping us create a promotional video for one of our programs. And we had we had storyboarded the video, but we were still struggling a little to kind of get it to that next step. So to help us set the tone, I just I created a quick script using the Canva AI voice generator. And there are four different options, and so I I tried them all out and I used the voice that sounded a beat, professional, empowering, you know, kind of all the emotions I wanted my audience for this video to relate to. And then I added some music uh that I found using those same keywords because the music in this video will start even before the voiceover does. And, you know, we all know that music definitely influences tone, if not sets it in many cases. And so even though the word the actual words of the voiceover I used weren't necessarily what we we used in the very end, the tone of the video was set by the voice that I used and the music that I chose. And so once our intern could feel the emotion, she could visualize where we needed to go with the actual imagery, you know, what we needed to see on the screen. She could see that better in kind of her mind's eye and help bring it to life.

Tracy: 23:27

I love that you did that because I think it's a creative way to use AI and bring emotion in and get her to understand what it was you're trying to do.

Katrina: 23:38

Yeah, you know, that's not something that I would have known to do before, but you know, after years of experience, you do get an idea of, you know, things you can do to get yourself unstuck.

Tracy: 23:52

Right. Another thing that I wanted to kind of circle back to is something you kind you said at the beginning when you were talking about tone. And that is thinking about the language. The visuals and the music can grab their attention, but the language, and by language, I mean the actual words you're using can also help them decide if it the message is for them. And there are a lot of things we could talk about with language, but the one that I want to bring up today is jargon. I hear jargon all the time in our field. And, you know, I think everybody knows what jargon is, but to kind of level set here. Jargon is kind of that insider shorthand. It's the phrases that you use to signal that you're, you know, in a certain group, right? It can be words that we use all the time. And so they make total sense to us. But when we use them, if you're not on the inside, it can leave you feeling like, I don't know what they're talking about, or I'm not in that group. And an example of this is evidence-based intervention. I hear that all the time. People in my field knows what it means. But people outside of our space might hear something like "that science thing that I don't have time to Google" and tune us out, right? Um, there are lots of phrases like that that we use when we're talking to each other that we just need to be aware of. And I want to be really clear that jargon is not always bad. It definitely has its uses, and it can be important sometimes for us to show that we're part of that inside crowd. And it, you know, it can tell our audience this message is for me because I know what that is, right? And it can build a sense of shared understanding. So absolutely there are times to use it. What matters though is that we're being intentional about it, that we are aware that it can include some and exclude some. And, you know, every group has their jargon. I was just watching a video last night on some middle school teachers who are translating six, seven and skibbity and words like that for adults, right? Different audience, different group. Still important. So when you're writing your language or thinking about what language you're going to used, the goal is just to make sure that you're using the language that is right for your audience that you defined at the very beginning. And that the audience believes you when you're using it. You know, me as my age, I'm gonna sound funny if I'm using six, seven and skibbity. Let's be real, right? So maybe I'm not the messenger for it. So just being aware of those types of things. And then before we just move on from language, I can't end without saying very clearly that using plain language does not mean that you're being unprofessional or that you're talking down to people, because I hear that all the time. If you use plain language in the right way, it just makes you more clear and it shows that you care enough about your audience to make sure they actually understand what you're saying. Okay, so again, we can certainly go a lot deeper when we're building our campaigns, and there's a lot more that we put into them that we aren't gonna go over today, but we just wanted to share some of those things that have come up in our campaigns recently that we had been thinking about that we had had conversations about.

Katrina: 27:41

Yeah, for sure.

Tracy: 27:44

We also had something else come up. We're gonna pivot a little bit here when we were working on some campaigns and we wanted to talk about it because independently, you and I both encountered this issue multiple times over the past couple of weeks, and it was with different audiences, you know, different people. But it's something that actually comes up pretty frequently. So we wanted to talk about it. And what I'm talking about is photo licenses. Knowing which photos you can use and which ones you can't is really important because using the wrong image can have real consequences. So, just within the last couple of weeks, I've had multiple people pull photos straight from a Google search and drop them into a flyer or a presentation or on a website or even on materials that were being created for a conference that we were promoting. And without realizing it, they had used photos that we didn't actually have permission to use. And these included photos from manufacturer websites, so product photos, from Reddit posts, even from stock photo sites where they didn't pay for it. And, you know, we can't do that. And we had to have conversations with them about how much they were putting themselves and their organizations at risk when they did that.

Katrina: 29:17

Yeah, you know, I also just had this conversation with our current intern. You know, she's a a marketing student, and you know, she has not been taught about the legality of photo use. It hasn't come up in her education. And so I'm guessing, you know, many other students aren't hearing about this either. You know, I think you were working more with kind of more mid and and more established career professionals. And so the fact that we're hearing this again in those different places means it's a good thing for us to talk about. And, you know, I'm a lawyer by education, and so I just really appreciate that this has always been just a part of the way our team operates. You know, we've always gotten photo release forms and checked to make sure are we allowed to use, you know, the image that we're we're trying to use. And I'll just clarify: it's not always just photos sometimes. It can be other things. Um, you know, it can be graphics, it can be things like that. And so, you know, this very topic was actually one of the reasons that we started the CIRTC YouTube channel. This was something we come back to all the time. And we wanted to be able to share this information with, you know, our interns and with staff and colleagues, but not always have to deliver it ourselves. And so this was one of the very first videos that I made for the CIRTC YouTube channel. And it covers, this video, covers copyright, creative commons, and public domain, which pretty much all of the assets that we're going to use in graphic design are going to be covered by one of those three things. And of course, we'll link to this video in the show notes, you know. But honestly, it's kind of cool to see this video do some numbers on the channel. And, you know, it's it's routinely kind of the second in views on the channel. And so I'm just so glad this information is getting out there. And there's there's two other videos actually on the channel that are related to this issue. How to sort images in Google search. So if you're doing an image search in Google, how can you sort the findings by the license type so that you then know, you know, it's a copyrighted image or it's a Creative Commons Commons image. And then we also have a video on how to use a reverse image search. If you have an image or an asset of some type and you don't know what license it's covered by, you can run it through a reverse image search and find out what it's covered by and then you know, know if you can use it appropriately. Right. Right. And so we will link to those as well in the show notes. So go check those out. And, you know, as you said, Tracy, it's just it's so important to know what we're using because using protected images or even screenshots of images, you know, using a screenshot will not protect you. Using these images can have really serious consequences.

Tracy: 32:29

Yes, I want to second that, and I really need people to hear this. If you didn't know what we were talking about, you don't know what Creative Commons is or copyright or public domain, please, please, please do your homework on this. This is something that has always been an issue and a concern, but it is even a bigger concern now. We are actually starting to see companies that are using AI bots to scour the internet for images that are being used without the right permissions, and then suing you for each and every misuse. So if you have multiple images on a website, for instance, and you don't have the rights to use them, you're gonna get sued for each image, not just once, each individual image. So please do your homework, take a look at those videos and be aware. And as Katrina mentioned, it's not just images. I've even seen it with fonts. I've seen somebody sued over um misusing a font or thinking they had the rights to use it when they didn't actually have them. So it's just, it is a really important topic. And it is something, like I said, that has come up multiple times for both of us just in the past couple of weeks. So it's clearly an issue and something that we need to be thinking about.

Katrina: 33:48

Absolutely. All right, Tracy. Anything else before we go today?

Tracy: 33:55

There is one more thing that I wanted to talk about before we close out today, and that is dark mode. Dark mode is a setting on your computer where you can have the images or whatever program you're working on, it shows up mostly in black or gray instead of the bright white, which most of most of your apps will open in. And I personally use it all the time with a lot of my programs, Outlook, ChatGPT, Word, things like that. And for me, I do it, it's an accessibility issue. I get migraines. So staring at these glaring white backgrounds on the screen all day can lead to some pretty serious headaches for me sometimes. So I need to do it. But it also matters for me. I do video calls all day, every day. And if I have a lot of big white screens up on my computer, it actually creates a glare on my glasses that is super distracting to me and possibly others as well. So I wanted to bring it up because I think I'm seeing people using it more and more. And why this matters is because I've noticed a couple of times recently where it's caused some challenges. Uh, so some examples are I use dark mode on my email. And I've had people email me with changes where they changed the font color that I didn't know, I didn't see that there were changes because the font color they changed it to didn't show up on my dark mode. So, you know, for me, it it meant I missed some changes, but it could also mean if you're sending emails out to your community or your audience and they're using dark mode and you're not testing it, they might not be getting all of your information. Same kind of thing with newsletters was another place I saw it in one of the newsletter creation programs. If you use an image that has a white background and I'm seeing it in dark mode, it can make the spacing look really weird. And you won't even realize it because if you're looking at it on a white screen, you don't see the white background. So I just wanted to bring it up as something that as designers and people that are sending out information, you might want to be checking that what you're sending out looks good on dark mode as well as, you know, the the the bright mode or whatever we call it, right?

Katrina: 36:33

Yeah. So I do not use dark mode. And so this was something I can't remember when you brought it up. It had never occurred to me to check this. My phone, I think, automatically flips into dark mode sometimes, but I don't think, you know, I send out emails, I I design websites, I do these types of things. I don't think I have it has ever occurred to me to check it. And so it's actually, you've got me wondering, we use MailChimp for our our you know, our email distributions. And when you're checking it, you know, you're somebody who you check the emails. Do you it's you're checking it then in dark mode, is what you're saying.

Tracy: 37:16

Yes. Now, okay, I I'll be honest, I didn't intentionally do that. I just get my email in dark mode. So in dark mode, right?

Katrina: 37:24

Well, but but that's handy because it means okay, as long as you're checking that email, you know, you said it's important to have somebody check. So it sounds like we all need to find a friend who works in dark mode so that we can have them check the things that we send out. Because it just it just doesn't occur to me to to check it in dark mode.

Tracy: 37:47

Yeah, I mean, it it was MailChimp. I'm pretty sure that that kind of got me thinking about this because it was something that you created where I had to say to you, this looks really funny because I'm looking at it in dark mode and everything looks off to me. And it was the first time that I had really started to think, oh, we need to be intentional about this.

Katrina: 38:07

Yep, Yep, just another thing to think about with all that capacity that we have.

Tracy: 38:14

So all right. Well, that is it for this episode. We've shared a lot with you today. If you liked what you heard today, please consider subscribing to or following us. If you do that, then you automatically are notified when new episodes are ready to download. So it can be handy for you. We also love it when you like or comment on the episode. Not only does it help us know that we're talking about topics that are of interest to you, but it helps us reach other people like you. And we are still fairly new to this. So we would love your help getting the word out about this podcast. Share it with somebody you think might like it. All of that helps. If you want to get in touch with us, there's a link in the show notes that will send us a text. And you can also find more from us on YouTube, LinkedIn, and Blue Sky at CIRTC, which is C-I-R-T-C.

Katrina: 39:09

All right. Thanks again for listening, everyone, and we'll see you next time.