Framing, Trust, and Empathy: An Interview with Brian Southwell, PhD

We sit down with health communication researcher and podcaster Brian Southwell to explore why misinformation spreads, what trust really means, how to talk about uncertainty, and where AI helps without replacing humans. We share concrete steps to bridge research and practice and lessons from podcasting that make messages feel human and useful.

Dr. Brian Southwell is Distinguished Fellow at RTI International where he oversees research on mental models of scientific concepts and public trust in science and scientists. He also Chairs the Fellows Program at RTI, is adjunct professor of Internal Medicine with Duke University, adjunct associate professor with UNC-Chapel Hill’s Gillings School of Global Public Health, and adjunct faculty member with the University of Delaware, and hosts the public radio show, The Measure of Everyday Life.

ResearchGate: https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Brian-Southwell

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This podcast is a project of the Center for Injury Research Translation and Communication (CIRTC). Connect with CIRTC: www.cirtc.org

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Note: all thoughts and opinions shared in this podcast are personal and not representative of any organization.

Transcript

Welcome And Guest Introduction

Katrina 0:09

Welcome back to Communications Breakdown, where we break down what works and doesn't. And health and science communication. I'm Katrina Boylan.

Tracy 0:19

And I'm Tracy Mehan. In this episode, we're trying something a little different, and we hope you like it. A few weeks ago, I recorded an interview with Brian Southwell, and we're gonna bring that to you today. Brian is a distinguished fellow and health communication researcher at RTI International, a graduate faculty member at the University of North Carolina, and host of the Measure of Everyday Life podcast. He has spent decades studying how people encounter, interpret, and make decisions on health information. He's worked closely with public health agencies like the CDC, especially on issues related to trust, risk communication, and misinformation.

Tracy 1:00

So if you've ever found yourself thinking, why isn't this message landing the way we expected? There's a good chance that Brian's work has something to say about that. Brian also happens to be a colleague and a good friend of mine and was gracious enough to agree to be our first ever guest.

Katrina 1:18

Yeah, I'm really excited to bring you this discussion. Having somebody like Brian as our first guest was a real honor. And I was listening as they recorded, and I found myself nodding along as they talked. And I'll be honest, I just I didn't really want it to stop. And so this is a longer conversation, but it is worth every minute. Tracy and Brian are going to cover the state of health communication and the field at large, what we still misunderstand about misinformation. They talk about some thoughts on AI and its role in healthcom. And then they finish up with what Brian has learned about communications from his own podcast, which Tracy mentioned earlier. And we will put a link to that in the show notes. And so with that, let's get going.

Tracy 2:12

Today we are welcoming Brian Southwell as our first official guest. So thank you, Brian, for joining us. We're really excited to have you on today.

Brian Southwell 2:21

Wow, it's such an honor to be here. I am a big fan of what you and Katrina are doing. And um, you know, Tracy, we've known each other a long time. And I it's just an honor to be here uh with you. So thank you for inviting me.

What Changed In Health Communication

Tracy 2:33

Of course, I'm really excited for this conversation, and I think it's going to be really interesting for our listeners as well. You have been in the health communication field for quite a long time now, and you've spent your career studying how people actually are encountering and interpreting health information. So I wanted to get your perspective when you look back over the health communication landscape. What feels most different even in the past few years from what you saw five or ten years ago?

Brian Southwell 3:05

Yeah. Well, first I want to point out how old we sound. You know, I have all this vantage point, but no, you're right. Um, it's been fascinating to um you know think about some of the changes. I think you know it's important. I think many people who have lived through that will recognize this, but just I think it is important for us to underscore how much the pace of information spreading really is arguably quicker than it's ever been. And it's also the case that just knowing where to turn to see what people in any given community are seeing, you know, now also might be somewhat more difficult. Um and so we've got this moment when we are seemingly awash in information that's spreading quickly quickly all over the globe. And yet we aren't necessarily certain of what any other community is seeing. So there's that fragmentation, I think, is certainly something um you know that we might worry about and and you know think about. I mean, we just had a uh a Super Bowl uh you know this weekend and you know, a Super Bowl halftime show, you know, as well. And and many people are gonna be talking about that this week, but we don't really have as many of those moments of shared attention, perhaps as we did um, you know, a decade or two ago. And I I do think that has um you know some implication for us as a challenge, because uh, you know, sharing attention really matters um, you know, because of the possibility of of recognizing shared values and interests you know with your neighbors. And so so I think one challenge that that we are going to face is that we're gonna have to look for some new ways to connect. And I think connection is um you know something that's gonna be really important and moving forward. You know, at the same time, though, despite all these changes, we we long have had um you know challenges that we've been trying to overcome. As we think about this in terms of public health and medicine, you know, we've often needed to try to convince people to invest in their future health and the health of their neighbors instead of perhaps what's easiest in the moment. So that that hasn't really changed, you know, and that's been an important challenge for health communication professionals for a long time. We've also long had challenges with um inaccurate information or misperceptions or misinformation. And we'll we'll talk more about that, I think, you know, later today. But um, that's something that isn't entirely new. Um, you know, and I think that's important for us to hold on to as well. So we've we've been around you know here for a while with with some of these challenges, um, but um it is it is a little bit of a different landscape than we we once once faced.

Why Misinformation Spreads

Tracy 5:35

Yeah, I think you're right. I the the fragmentation is getting harder as a health communicator to figure out how to be and how many different spaces to be in and things like that. Yep. But misinformation, I think, is something that we are hearing quite a bit. It seems like every meeting I'm in these days, people are talking about how are we combating this mis and disinformation. So I so let's go ahead and and talk about that because that is an area that you have really focused on in your research. And I'm curious to hear, you know, what your thoughts are on that and what we're still getting wrong about how misinformation spreads and what we can do to stop it as health communicators.

Brian Southwell 6:20

Yeah, no, I I appreciate that that question. Um, I don't know, because I do think uh that we do have some misperceptions, you know, about misinformation. Uh, you know, I there have been lots of headlines, lots of talks um, you know, about um misinformation as a phenomenon. And something that I think we're not getting quite right uh is this adage that uh perhaps you've heard, you know, many of the listeners will have heard, this notion that somehow um you know misinformation you know spreads further and faster than the truth. And you know, that there's there is some empirical basis for problematic information, for inaccurate information, um, you know, spreading quickly. Um there is uh there's been you know a look at this uh you know from a research perspective. But what I think we get wrong about that is that there's nothing magic about misinformation as misinformation per se. It's not as though people are somehow um, you know, brainwashed or drawn in or in love with um you know false information because of its falsehood, uh, you know, somehow. I mean that's and that's something that I think we really have to keep an eye on, because the reason why a lot of this information, you know, and misinformation does uh you know travel quickly, spread uh to lots of places, because of the way it's been framed, because it is um you know packaged in a way that answers questions that people have, that somehow you know taps into um, you know, their gut instinct and interests. And so on some level, it's been marketed better. It's been framed you know differently. And that's something that we could take lessons from, I think, in terms of um, you know, putting together uh accurate information that is useful for people. Uh, we don't spend enough time thinking about the questions that they have and about um how to address their needs. Uh, we often think about what it is that needs to be said. Um and so that's something that I I actually gives me some optimism and hope because I think that uh the problem as we faced it is really often a matter of uh framing and and marketing of that information. Now, the the challenge, of course, is that um, you know, often people that are sharing or crafting or drafting um you know misinformation are doing so from uh a standpoint of having no constraints. You know, they don't necessarily have to worry about the truth. And so it's a lot easier perhaps to um uh seemingly satisfy people's needs, seemingly um, you know, satiate or um really meet their interests, um, you know, if you can just make up whatever you want. And so there is, it's a it's not quite a fair fight um in that regard. And it's worthwhile for us to think about that too. But I do think we could be um you know doing a lot better by thinking about answering questions people have, thinking about how to um, you know, package and frame information in ways that actually um make sense for people as as they're trying to make sense of their health. What I am very confident in um is that generally speaking, most people are trying to um you know keep themselves healthy. They're thinking about the well-being of their family. Uh, this is not something that um you know people are are somehow drawn to information that's gonna harm them or those around them. Uh, and and that's something that I think uh should uh give us some hope.

Tracy 9:35

Yeah, you know, it's really interesting. Katrina and I talk a lot about this, and we actually are coming off of a three-part training that we just conducted and led with health communicators. And one of the things we teach them is to think about where they are. You know, when we're writing these public health messages, a lot of times we're sitting at our desk with a set of facts that we want to share with you.

unknown 10:02

Right.

Tracy 10:03

And when the stories that you're talking about, I think a lot of times it's it's not that most people are, I hope, trying to get wrong information out there. What they're putting out is a story that about something that happened to them and how they are understanding what happened. Right. And so the power is it's personal and there's a story, and they're not sitting in front of a computer trying to tell us facts. Exactly. So the differ, yeah. So the difference is we try and tell you what we want you to know instead of thinking about where are you? What's gonna have an impact in your life? How are you gonna hear this and experiencing it? And we need to kind of flip that as health communicators and be more personal and think about where they are, I think.

The Three Dimensions Of Trust

Brian Southwell 10:49

Well, and also, you know, often, you know, those personal stories that we hear, um, you know, we're hearing people testify, you know, from their own experience. And that's there's something really compelling about that, you know, because the ideas that people have been motivated to share this because of you know, some emotional experience they've been through and they're trying to tell you what they see as you know as being the truth. And so so that that's compelling for for people to listen to. Um, and that that really gets at you know, this notion of of trust, um, which is uh more complicated than I think uh we sometimes um you know think it is. And that uh actually the the story of trust is is simpler in some ways, but I don't I think we often overlook it. Um and I think that's something that is another misperception that perhaps you know we could spend some time talking about.

Tracy 11:38

Yeah, I actually that's a perfect segue. Thinking about trust, I think is really important. And trust in the messenger right now is something we have had to think about in ways that we haven't in public health in many cases for a long time. Some of our institutions that we knew we could trust before that trust is being undermined. So in terms of your research, have you looked at that? What kind of role is this trust in the messenger versus the trust in the messenger itself? How has that changed?

Brian Southwell 12:16

Yeah, well, I I actually I think this has long been a way that people have made sense of information, you know, paying attention to who is offering it. Um I I don't think we've uh what's what's fascinating is that uh trust is a concept, uh, an everyday you know vocabulary word that um you know, if you and I were just talking about, it would make sense. You know, most people have a common sense understanding of it. And yet we haven't really spent a lot of time in academic literature or as much as we need to anyway, um, unpacking and defining what the heck it is we mean by this concept. And when we do that in terms of how people use it in everyday language, there there's an aspect of this that I think we've we've overlooked. Um, because when you talk to people um about what you know trust essentially you know means to them, there are a couple of different dimensions that that tend to pop up. Um, you know, certainly part of it is intellectual credibility, um, you know, and the extent to which you think somebody is smart or knowledgeable. Um and and it'd be wrong, it would be silly to overlook that because that you know that matters to people. Um, but it also matters to people, um, you know, their sense of both predictability and consistency, you know, to what extent uh is what you're saying today, you know, line up with you know what you've tended to say, or are you changing your tune all the time? Um and so that is something that actually can be a challenge, you know, sometimes. Um, you know, for example, in a pandemic when the you know scientific evidence is is changing or being updated, um, that can be difficult to um uh you know get audiences to understand um you know that. But you know, so consistency is something that seems to seems to matter. But there's a third element here, which is um something that I don't think we've done a very good job of um you know from a public health standpoint, uh recognizing that um it does matter to people whether or not they you know see a speaker or an information source as having you know shared interests with them. And this is something that I think um explains a lot of our uh contemporary situation from a societal perspective in terms of uh some of the civic discord and strife that we see in the world. Um and I think that at the end of the day, if I'm standing up before you and offering you know pronouncements and messages, um it's gonna matter whether or not you think, you know, I know what I'm talking about, um, you know, and the letters after my name, perhaps, or you know, the institutional credibility that I seem to have, you know, standing behind me. But what also matters is um as an audience member, when I'm listening to somebody, do it, do they do I get the sense that they care if I live or die? Do I get the sense that we are on the same page, on the same team, uh, on this in the same community? Do we have shared interests? And I think we often don't we uh there's a case to be made there in many instances that of course, you know, public health uh organizations, medical institutions, um, you know, share uh, you know, interests with the communities that they try to serve. But we we aren't very explicit about that sometimes. And I think that what gets lost in that abstraction is um is the basic message of, you know, why, why should I listen to you? Um, you know, why should I care? How do I know that you actually are offering me this information because of what you think is in my best interest and not just for some other motive or some other reason. And so that's something that um I think we need to do a lot better job of uh in our messaging and and and frankly, in the way that we design programs and think about our relationship to communities, um, we have to think about them more in terms of you know partnership and community and less in terms of just offering missives and and um and messages.

Tracy 16:07

Yeah, you know, that's interesting. You just made me think of a study that one of our researchers, researchers did a few years ago looking at media coverage of our studies. And and they actually interviewed mothers of young children. And some of what they found is that in some instances, when our researchers in their white coats were being interviewed, they they trusted that they were giving good information, but they didn't necessarily trust that the information would be relevant to them because they didn't have that shared experience.

unknown 16:43

Yeah.

Tracy 16:44

And they also saw that when the interview showed families in you know upper middle class, high-income homes, they also got disconnected from it in some scenarios because they said, Well, that's not how I live, that's not what my home looks like. So I don't know if that message you know matches what my experience is. So I do think you know it's something I on our team we talk a lot about. We are trying to think of ways that we can do that. I know different organizations are starting to do that, but it inter it's definitely interesting.

Brian Southwell 17:22

Yeah. Well, and it's just it it means that um, you know, representation matters, uh, the extent to which you see yourself um, you know, in in what's being you know said and and how it's being presented, um, you know, how could that not matter? You know, and and how could it not matter that um you know you see yourself as part of the community that's being you know addressed? And so um I think that's something that, you know, fortunately, there's a lot we can do um, you know, to actually highlight all of those connections that we do share. You think about this um, you know, in the context of a public health emergency, right? Well, we are doing that work in order to um, you know, ensure that uh the community is is healthier over the long term. But um, you know, we need to point out why it is that we care about that. And and we care about it for a lot of reasons. Um some of the reasons we care about it are are economic. And that's okay, I think, to acknowledge that too. Um, you know, that it matters for this the stability of our society, you know, for um, you know, other aspects of how we interact with each other to make sure that people are um you know not um you know suffering from uh you know diseases that uh you know they they shouldn't have needed to encounter um if they'd gotten uh you know the correct uh protection you know beforehand. And so um you know that's that's something that um I just think we could spend a lot more time you know thinking about. And and the good news is I don't think we have to radically change uh there's there's a truth there to be shared that will matter. There's a truth there about the um shared interest and relationships um in between institutions and organizations and communities that would actually go a long way. And so we could just do a better job of um spotlighting that.

Naming Uncertainty Builds Credibility

Tracy 19:03

Yeah, I think you're hitting on something else that I think is really interesting. So this truth and understanding of science. And I think some of the misinformation comes from not knowing how to understand the work because we as scientists don't always do the best job explaining it in terms that people understand. So there's this uncertainty that happens around science a lot of times. And you just recently published a paper around that that I'd love to talk about a little bit. Sure. Um, you in the paper, correct me if I I don't get this right, but you you looked at uncertainty and how it was being communicated. And I think you know, you you had some interesting findings where, you know, you looked at this perception sometimes that people in our field have that if we acknowledge uncertainty, it's gonna make the public trust us less. But that's not actually what your paper found.

Brian Southwell 20:11

Yeah. Yeah, that's actually, you know, you're you're right. And this is something that I I this goes to exactly what we were just talking about. Um yeah, we uh did this is a paper that um you know recently uh was um you know published and uh with some colleagues um who were um you know at the time of of working on this um at the uh the CDC and and colleagues of mine at RTI International. Um and we took a look at um uh a situation where there was a a hypothetical uh foodborne illness you know outbreak. And um we talked with um you know thousands of participants in a in a survey context um uh and offered them one of a couple of different ways that you might present uh you know messages about uh that foodborne um outbreak uh uh for foodborne illness outbreak. And um people were able to essentially, you know, in in one case, in one group, um, you know, just got the facts of what you know, what a little bit of what was known. Um in other instances, uh though, we actually included uh message enhancements that um all were based in the truth of the circumstance, um, including you know uh uh the sense that, you know what, uh in situations like this, it's it makes sense for um you know you to be uh to feel some sense of ambiguity and um you know and and uncertainty, um, that that's that's actually uh normal um you know here, that ultimately um you know there is some uncertainty about exactly where the investigation is going to go, um, but we're gonna keep you posted and updated. Um, and here's what we're gonna do in terms of um, you know, our next steps. Uh and um, you know, this expression of uh some empathy for um you know. Audiences, the sense that, like, here's what we know, um, here's what we don't know. Uh, here we're gonna be as transparent as we can about all this moving forward. We're gonna commit to you that we're gonna come back uh and give you updates um, you know, here. Um that doing that really mattered. Um, that there actually uh what we saw amongst participants was a greater um perception of uh message trustworthiness. Um, you know, and and actually, you know, people also felt more assured and and um you know understanding with regards to the process of uh of science. And so, you know, taking those steps, you know, what does it do? It actually um helps to educate people about you know what science is as a process. It helps to um you know express uh some commonality and and um you know empathy uh and uh and it lets them know that look, we are in this together and we're gonna give you the information that you know that we have and can share. Um, and we're gonna you know update that. And so there's an anticipation um you know that things might you know slightly change here in the future. All those are are steps that people sometimes shy away from because they think um you know that somehow it's just gonna muddy the waters. But actually it turns out to have been really important um you know in this particular case. And I I really appreciate um you know the chance that we were able to look at that empirically and and see that um you know that this did make a difference.

Tracy 23:23

Yeah, I think it's really important because I run into that all the time. I work with researchers and I do the health communication myself. And so what I'm hearing is that some of our researchers are some of our researchers and scientists it's okay to acknowledge that maybe we don't have all the answers right now, but we're still working on it. Would you say that's fair?

Brian Southwell 23:49

Yes. Um, I think that, you know, what's also important is if you can give people a sense of of why you don't have the answers and what you're gonna do, you know, and I think all that is also equally important. Um here. Transparency is really the key. Um, you know, this sense that uh, you know, if we're all in this together, well then let's let's share information and and we'll we'll let you know. Um and I think that uh there's another aspect of this that I think is really critically important. Um and that is science isn't and and shouldn't, I mean, it's it's a problem when it's viewed as something that's happening amongst a you know secretive uh you know team of of researchers off you know somewhere um you know doing work uh that's somehow not in in the public interest. And science isn't this um you know group uh you know, so off somewhere, a team that you know is against you know society. Science is a process. Science is a process that can be uh engaged and utilized by communities, by um, you know, professional researchers, by you know a range of uh folks. And and that's it's a process that requires that we follow certain steps, that we be rigorous about it, that we unblinkingly look at what you know the truth is and when we find evidence. But it's a process that helps us make decisions. And um that's something that is in that way uh we should view as a tool um for all of our um you know interests. And that's something that um I'm not sure we spend enough time here really emphasizing. So you can actually uh suggest that or signal that um with some subtle you know cues just by suggesting here's what the process is, just in case you didn't know. Like when there's a a foodborne illness you know outbreak, here's what we have to do to go in and investigate. Um, you know, and and here's what we're gonna do, and and we'll keep you updated, you know, as we move along. So um I think a lot of that can um go a long way towards uh really trying to build um you know new bridges of partnership in communities.

Bridging Research And Practice

Tracy 25:48

Yeah, I Brian, I think that's really interesting because I think some of the work you do, this study and and others that you have done really highlight some key things and the way you just talked about it. You gave some concrete, here's some steps we can do as scientists and communicators to talk about this. But one of the things I think is really interesting is you're doing this research and and others, lots of people are doing research like this. But the people on the ground who are the health communicators, who are sometimes the ones that are dealing with the communities or, you know, in the public health departments, they don't always know about our research, or it takes a long time for our research to get to them. So, how can we do a better job of bridging those two groups of people to make sure they learn what you just shared with us? Because that's valuable, important stuff, right?

Brian Southwell 26:42

Right. Well, I mean, a first step is, you know, uh to listen to shows like yours, right? Uh and so this is uh a good step um, I think in that direction. What you've done um, you know, with this show is to open up a space where you're able to have, you know, everyday conversation um and to to talk about uh you know these issues. This is the what's important to realize is I think a lot of the practitioners you know that are out there, they're making decisions uh, you know, every day about how they're gonna do their work. And they're often drawing on their experience in doing that. And that's not that far removed from um you know the peer-reviewed science that we're talking about, you know, here. It's just that sometimes that peer-reviewed science ends up in journals and uh in other places. And we should be spending more time, you know, really talking about what those implications are. You know, the the study that we just talked about, uh, we're really fortunate and happy to have in the Journal of Public Health Management, you know, in practice. And there are other outlets like that out there. But um, we could also spend more time translating that work um and distilling it and digesting it and offering it. Um and there's nothing it it should be, it should inform um, you know, the decision making that uh practitioners are are making um you know here. But uh you know, sometimes um you know people don't have subscription to journals or they don't have you know necessarily um you know the the sense of of time to be able to track all that down. But I think um there's more that we could do to build those bridges. I think that's the right metaphor there is that um you know there are uh bridges that need to be built. Um, you know, and I think uh I'm very confident that um a lot of the uh takeaway messages are ones that will resonate um, you know, and uh with practitioners, and I think there's a lot that they could benefit um you know from. But I also think that we need to spend more time inviting practitioners um to think about how to um you know rigorously assess you know their experiences and to share that um, you know, as well. Um and we need more practitioners actually publishing their work or sharing um you know the work and experiences. And and that's something that I think we can find um perhaps different forums and formats um to enable that to happen because um there's a lot that they we could learn from uh in terms of the everyday work of practitioners as well.

Tracy 28:56

Yeah, for sure. And I'm gonna put my own little plug in there. I think we need to find new, better, maybe more creative ways to increase funding and support of this translation work. I think both funding-wise and you know, at our institutions, we don't give enough credit to the work to do that translation.

Brian Southwell 29:21

Right. No, I unless, yeah. No, I I just I I couldn't agree with you more because it it's um you know something that is easily overlooked, um, and you don't recognize when it's not there, um, but then people will bemoan or wonder, like, well, why is there this yawning gap between you know what we know in terms of best practices or you know, the academic literature and then and these other conversations. But it takes time and effort. Um, you know, and I think that there are um you know ways that you can build these bridges, but they need resources to be built and they need to be maintained. And the other piece of this that I think is often overlooked is that these should not be viewed as just uh this isn't just a matter of crafting you know clever press releases. This is a matter of establishing conversations um and you know, two-way conversations. And so we should be spending time thinking about packaging information, but also listening. You know, how are we gonna find out what it is that audiences and and patients and communities um want to know about if we don't ask them or aren't listening or aren't finding ways to hear? And so um that listening capacity is one that um is crucially important, but it also takes um it takes investment. And and that's something that if we don't invest in, we're it's we're not gonna have that um that available to us. And that's gonna be our loss. And so that I agree, I couldn't agree with you more.

AI As A Partner, Not A Replacement

Tracy 30:46

Yeah, I love that, Brian. Listening, I think is so important and it's a skill sometimes that gets cut or left out when you're trying to tighten budgets and different things. So I hope we can continue to think about listening and how important that is. Um, I could talk to you about this all day, but I want to make sure I have a couple other areas. So I'm gonna pivot us and we're gonna switch gears a little bit to talk about AI. I know that you and I have both been really interested in AI's impact on health communications. So I wanted to spend some of our time together talking about that. So I'm curious, what are the people in your circles talking about when it comes to AI? Are they concerned, excited? Kind of what's the temperature in the room around AI that you're hearing right now?

Brian Southwell 31:38

Yeah, no, there's all that, I think. Um, I think it's fair to say that there's a lot of anticipation and and cautious excitement. There's also a bit of concern, um, you know, that I think some of our understanding of possibilities perhaps are overstated or that there's a misperception. And and I think we've got to view this as a part of um you know our toolkit moving forward. Um, but you know, humans are going to be an important part of um of the story, uh, of course, uh as well. And I think that's um really important for us to recognize. Um, we actually this past fall um brought uh folks together uh in a um uh fairly substantial um you know dialogue um you know in an event uh where we uh RTI International partnered um with Elon University and uh we had uh generous um you know sponsorship from a number of organizations. Uh and that was a really important opportunity for us to ask questions about what um what relationships humans could and should have with artificial intelligence across a variety of sectors, and so not just health communication, but in a lot of arenas. And uh we're actually um this spring we'll be uh publishing a review piece in um RTI Press um that will you know talk about some of those major themes. And I think one of the conclusions we came to is that um the you know the sense of partnership is gonna be really important. Um and so recognizing that there are still gonna be uh human beings asking you know questions and using tools to answer them, um, I think that's gonna be uh you know what we see here moving forward. I there's a lot that's gonna be possible that um, you know, is gonna be important for us to uh think about. Um, but I don't think we're gonna see a moment anytime soon in which, you know, Tracy, you or I or Katrina, you know, completely disappear um in the equation. Because at the end of the day, we are human communities trying to keep each other um healthy and well. And um, I think we're gonna continue to have uh humans um in positions of making those decisions um and and really trying to use some of these tools in order to uh in order to do that.

Tracy 33:49

Yeah, you know, Brian, I've been on this for years now and been really thinking about it, talking to people about how they're using it, what their fears are, all of that kind of stuff. And what I've really kind of come around to is there's this concept that those that are developing AI use that they call human in the loop, where AI does something and nothing should be released until a human reviews it. And I think that's interesting, but I have really liked the idea of flipping that script. And I think of it as AI in the loop, or yeah, where I'm doing the work and I use AI as the tool to support, but not do the heavy lifting, not do the work, not replace me, but enhance what I'm doing, or maybe give me more time to have to do deeper dives or have more thought into something and let it do some of that computationally intensive work that I don't have to do.

Brian Southwell 34:50

Well, you know, yeah, and part of this is a matter of you know, many artificial intelligence tools can offer a realistic looking facsimile of output and of content. And uh great, but to what end, you know, is yeah, we we at the end of the day, there are elements of our health communication, you know, work which should still be, you know, imagine you've got uh uh a family that is trying to um you know make sure all its members are are well and that they're they're healthy dynamics. You've got a community of you know 10, 20, 30 people um, you know, who are together physically, you know, interacting in a space. Like there are questions and dynamics there that are fundamental that um are not going away, and that really at the end of the day, there are you know human beings you know populating you know this earth and communities that uh we're trying to do our best. And I think we're gonna, so far as we're trying to continue to do that, um you know, that notion of um you know finding tools and thinking about how to use them is is really critically important. And I think you're I like your um you flipped metaphor there.

Tracy 36:00

Thank you. Yeah, I think it's gonna be interesting. Like you said, it ties back to that community, right? It's AI is what it is, but it's not a human. And if we're really gonna truly connect with our communities and what they need and what they want from us as public health, we can't do that through AI only.

Brian Southwell 36:19

Well, and you know, the other thing, not to be overly metaphysical and philosophical here, but you know, at the end of the day, you know, human, our human story is what it is. We are you know on this planet. There's a much larger universe, forces that are much bigger than us anyway, that have long been, you know, dictating a whole lot of things. We and so it's important that we think about our relationship to bacteria and our relationship to um you know solar energy and our relationship to all these other things, but but there is the human element of it that that is that is who we are. And that's and that, you know, we have to have some humility, but also I think it means that we also have the right and ability and agency to decide we're gonna do what we can to you know to work within you know this universe that we've been born into to try to try to stay healthy. And I so I think that that kind of approach might be important to take here as we think about advances in technology, which of course are gonna continue to um you know to improve.

Tracy 37:15

Yeah. You know, I think um, you know, there are some interesting things. I don't want to make it sound like we don't use, I use it all day, every day. I I use it the most on our team. And we are exploring some, I think interesting, at least to me, ways of using this technology. We talked about, you know, different communities not feeling like they're seen in the message. And one of the struggles that we have all the time is we are limited in our budget. I can't do a photo shoot every time I want to do a message. And if I go to the stock photo sites, many of them still are very heavily influenced by these perfect looking homes and families that look a certain way. And so we've been using it to try and explore like what other images can we create that would help families connect with our messaging. And we've been able to come up with some really exciting and unique things. So I'm excited about that.

Using AI For Representation And Listening

Brian Southwell 38:13

Yeah, you know, the the the stock photo um bias problem is one that, you know, folks at North Carolina State University down here by me, I remember a few years ago doing really interesting work to kind of look at you just the paucity of of images that really are available when you when you think about it. They're not reflective of um you know the wider world. We live in a very complex and uh richly diverse you know world, and and a lot of what we have available just isn't isn't that. Um, you know, there are interesting dynamics, you know, ethically in terms of making sure that audiences, you know, when what you generate that they feel like that's um that is representative. And it in many cases it may feel more um you know so than than what otherwise is available. You know, I I suspect uh you know, and Tracy, I don't know, that's something that you might think about. Some audiences may want to see some of that disclosed, you know, to know whether or not you know this the same way that we do like in a television advertisement, say, well, these are actors or whatever. But I think people get beyond that pretty quickly because we can see ourselves in art and fiction. Um, you know, and I think that the the resonance there is probably really pretty important. And so that's I think there's a really clever um application of this. And I think that's something that um people are gonna find compelling. I I also think that uh you know AI allows us to do um you know something that you know teams of two or three can't necessarily talked a little bit before about listening. Well, we can probably listen on a wider scale to the scope of what's out there in terms of social media or in other communities, um, you know, much at least at least um have an ear to the ground with with AI in ways that um you know might be different than what we can do just sitting in our offices. And and and there's idea generation based on you know what people were doing in terms of a quick Google search. You know, there's a more powerful uh you know idea generation that's possible. As long as you've got humans you know continuing to exercise agency and make good ethical decision making, I think there's a lot of exciting possibilities ahead.

Tracy 40:09

Yeah, for sure. It it's all about and how you use it, right? Yeah. Um well, again, another topic I could talk to you about all day, but I'd love to make sure we have a little bit of time to talk about your podcast.

Brian Southwell 40:23

Oh, sure.

Tracy 40:24

So I know our listeners will be really interested to learn about that. Your podcast is called The Measure of Everyday Life, and it emphasizes evidence and how we understand the world.

Lessons From The Measure Of Everyday Life

Brian Southwell 40:35

Yeah. Yeah, it's been a really great um, you know, experience for more than a decade now. And so uh it's another opportunity to date myself. But um, yeah, we we started the show um with an interest in really trying to offer researchers and practitioners a chance to show their human side, a chance to um really put a spotlight on all the fascinating stories that happen in social science more broadly. Um there's no reason why we couldn't be celebrating those stories more than we do, but uh and so that's what we're trying to do with the show. And we've been doing that for a long time uh with our partners at WNCU. That's a public radio station uh based in North Carolina. And then you know the podcast version of our show has been available all around the world, and it's been exciting to hear um, you know, how people have um connected with that. And I I generally speaking, it's it's been a real opportunity to um have a different type of conversation with people um than what sometimes appears in books or in peer-reviewed uh journal articles. It's been a chance to um you know informally talk to people. And that's something that we really have tried to do um and I've I've learned, I think, over time, um, and something that you know perhaps is even a bit surprising is that you know kind of leaning into that format is really important, you know, trying not to dress it up with too much formality, uh, letting people speak for themselves. Um, and that there's a lot that people uh have to offer when you talk to them in that way. Early on when we um you know first produced the show, I would have these lengthy um introductions, and um as though I was you know somehow trying to bolster the credibility of each guest. And I don't know that all that actually turned out to not be as useful as just um you know letting uh listeners know that we've selected a guest because there's something compelling they had to say, and then letting the guests, you know, talk for themselves. And that's been something that um I found generally the more as I get older, uh, the more I can put a spotlight on other people, the more that I can um, you know, that's a role that I can play. And it's really less about me and more about uh the ideas and the people that we're talking to. That's been that's been a real lesson learned uh with all this. But it's been a great adventure, and I've been really appreciative to have the chance to do it.

Tracy 42:38

You know, Brian, I I really appreciate that you said that. It's something that Katrina and I have been talking about. So we're relatively early in our podcasting careers here, and it is exactly one of the things that we worried about and are already starting to change, is we felt like we had to have this, you know, polish or this like proving that we are worth listening to. But you're right, what people respond to the most is when we are authentically and genuinely us.

Brian Southwell 43:10

Yes, a hundred percent. I mean, that's early. We even I'll even you know share some of this that um, you know, in the first you know, year or two doing the show, um you know we would have instances where you know we'd make decisions about uh you know editing, you know, even and um you know some of what we would edit, you know, if if people you know had a lot of ums and ahs, you know, in their uh you know, dialogue or uh you know other types of things, you know, we would sometimes clean some of that up and we realize that you know, we should best we should just be sharing a conversation. Uh of course the ni preparation needs to go into it, and of course you can't always air everything that you you talk about. Um, you know, although one of the advantages that we actually have on the um on our show is that um we essentially tape a half hour conversation because we know that uh We have to broadcast in that window. So we have a very set time definition. So that's kind of kept me honest a little bit in terms of trying to just think in real time about the conversation we're having. But I found that it's people the most compelling moments come when somebody's voice breaks a little bit or when there's a distraction and we both collectively have to respond to that. Or people pause a little bit. Just being yourself and um is is really important and trying to make sure that your guests are able to be themselves. That's people want to hear that.

Tracy 44:44

Yeah, I've been thinking a lot about podcasting and what it brings and why we're choosing this as a format now. And I know when I listen to your episodes, what I really love is it gives you more time. Like you said earlier, if you're writing a press release or you're writing a social media post, or you're even doing a blog post on a, you know, research article that you did, you have limitations and there's certain ways you have to present yourself in those spaces. But podcasting allows the human to come through and the story of the research to come through. And I think it's really exciting. And I I love hearing the way you talk about research with the researchers. And I think it's an interesting space. I, you know, podcasting's not new.

Brian Southwell 45:36

No, but it what it what it does, it just gives you a chance. What I always love most about it is just you get a sense of why people do what they do. I mean, we're all making choices. There are a lot of things we could be doing in this world. And so why are people spending time on the on the work that they do? And I think sometimes it gives you guests a chance to think about and and really reflect on that too. And so um, yeah, I we're all just humans trying to trying to make it and work in this world. And and a lot of researchers are exactly the same and they are they're really passionate about their work, and it's really um a pleasure to to hear to give them a chance to talk about that in a little bit of a different way.

Tracy 46:10

Yeah, so let's talk about that a little bit because I've actually been in several conversations recently where people are responding to this idea of podcasts now. And again, I laugh because podcasts are not new, but in public health, we tend to be behind the curve some. And so I think it's people are starting to realize oh, wait, this could be a good format for us. So, what advice would you give to someone who might be thinking about starting a podcast? And I'm kind of laughing here because I literally went to you and I had the same idea and asked you this exact question.

Brian Southwell 46:45

So well, and you've you've obviously taken uh advice and run with it and made it all your own. And and so no, I I it really goes back partly to what we were just talking about. I think um if you are um putting uh a platform together, don't be afraid to let other people shine. That's only going to um enhance what you're trying to do. And at the end of the day, if you think there are ideas in the world that need to be shared that other people are um are publishing or or you know, producing, find a way to do that. Focus on those ideas. And don't be afraid um also to learn something yourself. Um, you know, as a podcast host along the way, you should be doing this because you're interested in in the work that people are um you know presenting. I uh the through line for me, um, and this is something that I suppose listeners you know might hear um at the end of each uh episode, is I I just think curiosity um you know really is uh matters a lot. Um I hope that um you know both podcast hosts and their guests and their listeners can can all stay curious, uh, because I really do think that that's that's our best hope you know for humanity. I think a lot of the problems that uh we're facing right now are um due to a lack of uh of curiosity about other people, about the possibilities for our future. And so um I think that opening a space, letting it be um comfortable, casual, but also having some thoughtfulness about uh, you know, if you're if you're just sitting down for the first time planning out a an arc of a podcast, you should have three, four, five episodes in mind and not just one clever idea that you had. You should realize that um, you know, it is doing this is uh it's a bit of a hungry animal that is gonna require that you keep coming back and producing, you know, more. And so being ready to be in it for the long term, um letting it be a journey, um, I think is really important. Um, staying curious is is also really important. And just being your own authentic self, uh, whatever that's gonna be. Um, you know, I know that your listeners uh are certainly uh benefiting from what the two of you bring um to a show like this. And uh hopefully that's true. I think that's true in any any situation where there's any kind of audience for a podcast is uh it's really a better a matter of people sharing themselves.

Tracy 49:02

I love that, Brian, staying curious. I think that's so true. Listeners respond to that, and it is what we are in this field for a lot of times, right? We're curious about this and we want to do something good, and getting people the opportunity to actually see that and what it looks like, I think is is fantastic.

Brian Southwell 49:23

Yeah.

Advice For New Podcasters

Tracy 49:25

Um, I was gonna ask you if you could take one lesson from what you have learned as a podcast host back to academia or organizational communication, what would you say?

Brian Southwell 49:41

Well, you know, I I think um something that actually goes all the way back to uh when I first started publishing research myself, um, one of the highest compliments I ever got on a uh a paper early on was uh somebody that let me know that um you know my method section you know read like a story. Uh, you know, and uh that I I think at the end of the day, that's we are trying to present and share information to people. So um thinking about who it is that you're talking to, uh, who it is you're sharing with is really what's most important at the end of the day. Uh it's you are sitting down to record something hoping that somebody else is going to hear it. And uh if that's true, um then keep that person in mind. Um, you know, when you are um talking to your guest, uh, when you when they offer a vocabulary word or a piece of jargon that needs to be unpacked, you know, maybe gently nod and pro and and ask them to unpack that a little bit or ask the question that you think the audience is gonna have. And don't be afraid, because you know, you might ask a question and you're like, well, that makes me sound a little bit silly. But if it's a genuine question that you don't know the answer to, or you think your audience doesn't know the answer to, it's all right to ask that as well. Um so I think that's um I mean keep all that in mind. Um, that will make most most podcasts uh, you know, I think successful, um, because they'll they'll accomplish something in trying to present something and share something with an audience.

Tracy 51:13

Yeah, you said a couple of things there that I love and that got me thinking. Well, the other piece I think that you haven't maybe explicitly said yet is don't be afraid to get started.

Brian Southwell 51:23

Uh well, there's that too, right? I mean, because because that and that's that's true in life generally, right? Because, you know, as we know, it's it's it's a short journey that we're we're on. And so um it makes sense. If you are interested in doing this, you know, by all means, you know, jump in. Realize that it's not gonna be easy um, you know, at first, and do have a plan, do recognize that you know, you should be thinking two, three, four episodes out. But, you know, there's no better time to start than the moment. I agree with that.

unknown 51:52

Yeah.

Tracy 51:52

I mean, Katrina and I knew nothing about podcasting when we started this, and we taught ourselves how to do it. Absolutely. You know, we we self-fund this. We don't get any money from our organization to do it other than the time to do it. And we still found a way because it was something that we were passionate in. Now, hopefully that will change at some point. But, you know, we didn't know when we started, and we're not even six months in, or maybe just six months in, and we already have listeners in 33 countries, and it's just, you know, we didn't know what to expect, but people are responding.

Brian Southwell 52:29

So well, you know, it's it's true. Um, you know, with anything, you know, uh what you do is a gift, you know, that you put out into the world. And I think the best gifts are ones that you you don't necessarily have uh explicit expectation on the return of, but you think is a good idea to put out there in the world, and you hope that uh it's gonna be useful to people. And so um, I'm hopeful that you can continue doing that um, you know, with this. And uh it's it's certainly been a joy to hear what you've been doing with uh the communications breakdown.

Tracy 52:58

Oh, thank you, Brian. Well, listen, I could talk to you all day, but I think we'll wrap this up at this point. Uh before we close, I'll give you one last opportunity. Every good reporter does this, right? If there's one thing you hope listeners take away from our conversation today or anything that we didn't talk about that you would want to share, what would that be?

Brian Southwell 53:22

Uh I think in everybody's life, um, there are people that uh seem to be operating, you know, for their own self-interest. And there's others that are trying to um trying to connect people. And I think the more that we can do to support people that uh are trying to connect each other, um, I think at the end of the day, connections are really what it's all about. Um, and the more that we can foster that, uh, whether it be in health communication or or lots of other areas of uh professional life, um, the better off we'd be. So I guess I'd say uh you know, worry, worry less about yourself, uh, see what you can do to share other people's stories and uh do what you can to build connections.

Tracy 53:58

I love that. Connection, curiosity, community, being brave and getting started, being authentic, all great messages. Well, thank you, Brian. I've really appreciated having you on. Hopefully, our listeners will enjoy this conversation as much as I did, and we'll look forward to maybe talking to you again in the future.

Brian Southwell 54:17

Right. Well, thank you so much for having me.

Closing Reflections On Connection

Katrina 54:21

All right. So that was Tracy's conversation with Brian Southwell. And as I said in the opening, I loved listening to them talk about such a wide range of topics that, you know, we talk about on our team kind of all the time. And so Brian has such great perspective and such a huge bank of knowledge on these topics. And so I know I especially enjoyed hearing his take on podcasting. It was nice to hear that he had come to some of the same conclusions that we have after his years and years of experience. And so I just, I, I just really agree that podcasting is a a medium that really has the chance to reach people in places that, you know, we don't even know are looking for our content. Uh, you know, Tracy, you mentioned the, you know, the number of countries and things that we've been in. And so it again, it's just really a nice thing to hear um that you know, we're coming to to some of the same conclusions. And um just Brian again is somebody that we really looked up to. So it's just it was just great to hear him talk about his perspective. And so I just again, what a what a what a great honor to have him and hear his view of the field and and where we're going from there.

Tracy 55:36

Yeah, I agree. I really enjoyed having that conversation. Brian and I can talk shop all day. So I hope y'all like listening in as we had just a little bit of some of the conversations we frequently have. And as Katrina mentioned, we will have links in the show notes to some of the research that we were talking about in the episode.

Katrina 55:58

All right. Well, thank you so much for listening. As always, please follow or subscribe to Communications Breakdown wherever you you're listening to this podcast. And please feel free to share it with somebody else in your world who's who's also doing this work.

Tracy 56:12

You can also find us on LinkedIn and Blue Sky as C-I-R-T C. We love hearing from you about what's resonating, what you want us to talk about next. Even if you want to hear more guest discussions like this one, or if you have any one in particular you want to have us talk to, we'd love to hear about that.

Katrina 56:34

Thanks again for listening, and we'll see you next time.